here's how this verse should read: .
take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the holy ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of god, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
- kjvhere's how it reads in the nwt: pay attention to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the holy spirit has appointed you overseers, to shepherd the congregation of god, which he purchased with the blood of his own son.. here is how it reads in the kjv with the greek keyed to strong's: take heedg4337 thereforeg3767 unto yourselves,g1438 andg2532 to allg3956 theg3588 flock,g4168 overg1722 the whichg3739 theg3588 holyg40 ghostg4151 hath madeg5087 youg5209 overseers,g1985 to feedg4165 theg3588 churchg1577 of god,g2316 whichg3739 he hath purchasedg4046 withg1223 his owng2398 blood.g129 .
Should Acts 20:28 then be understood to refer to the blood of God the Father?
No, God is a triune being, but only one substance - one God, three persons. God the Son, of the same essence as the Father and H.S. was permanently fused with the son of Mary. This is why/how God can bleed.
simply put; gullible people were told if they chose life on earth instead of heaven, they wouldn't have to die.
that's how they sold it.
the watchtower lied to people in the 1920 booklet and convention series titled "millions now living will never die!
In conclusion, the “nothing” of physics is always a kind of something—a quantum vacuum, a potential, a set of laws—never the absolute nothingness of metaphysics.
Most internet atheists are materialists. This tempts them to sometimes try to describe "nothing" as something with no mass, unable to see, touch, or measure. However, most are familiar with high school physics where we learned how light travels as both a wave and a particle. While travelling as a wave, it is nothing more than a mathematical probability function. Upon observing it however, the wave function collapses into physical particles called photons. Photons are detectible by the receptors in our eyes.
This first video describes the wave function of light.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iuv6hY6zsd0&ab_channel=Veritasium
This second video explains how it collapses into particles immediately upon observation (almost like it was made for us)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kfGRO6msQw&ab_channel=Newsthink
It has also been demonstrated that chunks of matter (several hundred atoms) can also travel as a wave and collapse into matter.
So when Creationists ask atheists how did nothing create everything, we mean the total absence of matter, waves, numbers, probabilities, electric charges and potential values - everything.
simply put; gullible people were told if they chose life on earth instead of heaven, they wouldn't have to die.
that's how they sold it.
the watchtower lied to people in the 1920 booklet and convention series titled "millions now living will never die!
"Moreover, external corroboration exists: Josephus and Tacitus (despite atheist efforts to dismiss or minimize), Suetonius, Pliny the Younger, and even the hostile Talmudic references collectively affirm the core elements: Jesus existed, was crucified, his followers proclaimed his resurrection, and this movement exploded in the immediate aftermath. If you dismissed every ancient historical fact that is as well-attested as Jesus’ death by crucifixion, you would be left in a sea of agnosticism so deep you’d drown before breakfast."
Tough of Grey, I'm not laughing with you, I'm laughing at you.
simply put; gullible people were told if they chose life on earth instead of heaven, they wouldn't have to die.
that's how they sold it.
the watchtower lied to people in the 1920 booklet and convention series titled "millions now living will never die!
@TouchofGrey
How does presenting zero evidence for your worldview translate into "being honest"? How does that remotely translate into reasonable? If you don't understand your position, why adopt it? Didn't we all do that before?
By contrast, I presented you with evidence from most scholars which includes many (probably most) who are hostile to biblical Christianity.
Go ahead explain them. Let's take a look at your explanations to the 12 facts.
If you run from the challenge and just spike the ball anyway, it makes you appear foolish and ignorant. Didn't you get a belly full of that feeling as a recovering cult survivor? I know I did.
simply put; gullible people were told if they chose life on earth instead of heaven, they wouldn't have to die.
that's how they sold it.
the watchtower lied to people in the 1920 booklet and convention series titled "millions now living will never die!
@TouchofGrey
These 12 facts are agreed to by most scholars who publish in the area of 1st century Christianity. This list is a concession to the harshest of skeptics proving that even if we only use the bible books and sources they except, which aren't many, a person can arrive at this minimum list. It is strong evidence.
By contrast, can you provide any examples that would lead you to believe atheist miracles?
Atheist Miracles:
1. Existence Comes from Non-existence
2. Order Comes from Chaos
3. Life Comes from Non-Life
4. The Personal Comes from the Non-Personal
5. Reason Comes from Non-Reason
6. Morality Comes from Matter
I am not qualified to give answers to those points that you have raised.
here's how this verse should read: .
take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the holy ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of god, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
- kjvhere's how it reads in the nwt: pay attention to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the holy spirit has appointed you overseers, to shepherd the congregation of god, which he purchased with the blood of his own son.. here is how it reads in the kjv with the greek keyed to strong's: take heedg4337 thereforeg3767 unto yourselves,g1438 andg2532 to allg3956 theg3588 flock,g4168 overg1722 the whichg3739 theg3588 holyg40 ghostg4151 hath madeg5087 youg5209 overseers,g1985 to feedg4165 theg3588 churchg1577 of god,g2316 whichg3739 he hath purchasedg4046 withg1223 his owng2398 blood.g129 .
Numerous early church fathers referenced or commented on Acts 20:28. Here are some examples:
Tertullian: Tertullian, a prolific Christian author from the 2nd and 3rd centuries, made frequent reference to this verse, which he used to support his views, especially regarding marriage and its connection to the "blood of God".
Hippolytus: A 3rd-century theologian, Hippolytus, in his work "The Refutation of All Heresies," referenced Acts 20:28 in the context of addressing the emergence of heresies and the importance of preserving the unity and doctrines of the Church.
Peter of Alexandria: Another 3rd-century figure, Peter of Alexandria, referenced Acts 20:28 in his "Genuine Acts of Peter".
John Chrysostom: The renowned 4th-century preacher and Patriarch of Constantinople, John Chrysostom, commented on Acts 20:28 in his Homilies on the Acts of the Apostles. He emphasized the importance of the elders' role as overseers, their ordination by the Holy Spirit, and the preciousness of the Church, which was purchased with Christ's blood.
Apostolic Constitutions: This collection of liturgical and disciplinary regulations, though compiled later (around the 4th century), also includes references to Acts 20:28 within its prayers and exhortations concerning the role of bishops and the Church as purchased by Christ's blood.
Other Fathers: Various other early church fathers like Irenaeus, Cyprian, Origen, Ambrose, Jerome, and others also referenced Acts 20:28.
None of the quotes and paraphrases include the word "son".
@SBF Why didn't the early Christian leaders quote and paraphrase this verse like you and Watchtower does?
here's how this verse should read: .
take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the holy ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of god, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
- kjvhere's how it reads in the nwt: pay attention to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the holy spirit has appointed you overseers, to shepherd the congregation of god, which he purchased with the blood of his own son.. here is how it reads in the kjv with the greek keyed to strong's: take heedg4337 thereforeg3767 unto yourselves,g1438 andg2532 to allg3956 theg3588 flock,g4168 overg1722 the whichg3739 theg3588 holyg40 ghostg4151 hath madeg5087 youg5209 overseers,g1985 to feedg4165 theg3588 churchg1577 of god,g2316 whichg3739 he hath purchasedg4046 withg1223 his owng2398 blood.g129 .
But, English didn't exist 2000 years ago did it?
When the earliest congregation leaders quoted this verse it ALWAYS referred to God's blood. This of course was due to Gnostic influences that tried to diminish the deity of Jesus.
here's how this verse should read: .
take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the holy ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of god, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
- kjvhere's how it reads in the nwt: pay attention to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the holy spirit has appointed you overseers, to shepherd the congregation of god, which he purchased with the blood of his own son.. here is how it reads in the kjv with the greek keyed to strong's: take heedg4337 thereforeg3767 unto yourselves,g1438 andg2532 to allg3956 theg3588 flock,g4168 overg1722 the whichg3739 theg3588 holyg40 ghostg4151 hath madeg5087 youg5209 overseers,g1985 to feedg4165 theg3588 churchg1577 of god,g2316 whichg3739 he hath purchasedg4046 withg1223 his owng2398 blood.g129 .
Here's how this verse should read:
Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. - KJV
Here's how it reads in the NWT:
Pay attention to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the holy spirit has appointed you overseers, to shepherd the congregation of God, which he purchased with the blood of his own Son.
Here is how it reads in the KJV with the Greek keyed to Strong's:
Take heedG4337 thereforeG3767 unto yourselves,G1438 andG2532 to allG3956 theG3588 flock,G4168 overG1722 the whichG3739 theG3588 HolyG40 GhostG4151 hath madeG5087 youG5209 overseers,G1985 to feedG4165 theG3588 churchG1577 of God,G2316 whichG3739 he hath purchasedG4046 withG1223 his ownG2398 blood.G129
As you can see the word: "Son" does not even appear in this verse in the Greek.
Why did Watchtower add the word "Son" to this verse?
simply put; gullible people were told if they chose life on earth instead of heaven, they wouldn't have to die.
that's how they sold it.
the watchtower lied to people in the 1920 booklet and convention series titled "millions now living will never die!
aqwsed nails it:
The critique moves on to the “minimal facts” approach, claiming that it is methodologically flawed, subject to selection bias, and, ultimately, unable to bridge the gap between “the disciples believed Jesus rose” and “Jesus actually rose.”
Let us be clear: the “minimal facts” method is simply a tactical concession to skeptical standards, demonstrating that even if we use only those facts most widely accepted in critical New Testament scholarship—including the non-Christian and the non-theist—the best explanation of these facts remains the bodily resurrection.
If one wishes to dismiss the method as “apologetics,” the burden remains: what better alternative account actually explains the data without itself resorting to ad hoc speculation? It is not enough to intone “psychology” or “legendary accretion” as if such terms themselves did explanatory work.
The radical transformation of the disciples, the emergence of Christian faith in the very city where Jesus was executed, the conversion of hostile witnesses such as Paul, and the virtual absence of an early veneration of Jesus’ tomb (which would have immediately short-circuited resurrection claims had the body remained) all demand a coherent account.
To simply appeal to “human psychology” or “hallucination” is to collapse into a far more speculative hypothesis—especially when such explanations cannot account for group experiences, empty tomb traditions, and the birth of a resurrection-centered movement in a fiercely monotheistic and skeptical Jewish environment.
Here is a list of the minimum facts:
1. Jesus died by crucifixion.
- Multiple and varied attestation drastically increases likelihood of event (Tacitus, Josephus, Paul, Gospels - over a dozen in total)
2. He was buried.
- Everyone was sure he was dead.
3. His death caused the disciples to despair and lose hope.
- Means they didn't make up a story
4. The tomb was empty.
- Had it not been, it would have likely been memorialized. It was recognized that it could not hold him as was therefore of little importance.
5.The disciples had experiences which they believed were literal appearances of the risen Jesus.
- A most important proof and very difficult to explain away.
6. The disciples were transformed from doubters to bold proclaimers.
- If the "leader" was dead, doubters should increase not decrease.
7. The resurrection was the central message.
- Scholars now rate creeds with this belief message to the same year as the crucifixion.
8. They preached the message of Jesus’ resurrection in Jerusalem.
- Where it would be very easy to "fact check" if it wasn't true.
9. The Church was born and grew.
- The church was born from orthodox Jews who are not known to be very susceptible to change.
10. Orthodox Jews who believed in Christ made Sunday their primary day of worship.
- The Sabbath had been the holiest day of the week to Jews for over 14 centuries. All the sudden, Sunday was the holiest day of the week, why?
11. James was converted to the faith when he saw the resurrected Jesus
- James was a family skeptic
12. Paul was converted to the faith
- Paul was a skeptic and staunch persecutor of Jewish believers. This is strong enemy attestation.
@ Touch of Grey,
So, there you go. Explain these facts away if you can. (Same for you JoeyJoJo)
After that, please provide support for the Atheist presuppositions (miracles) if you can. Then, let's compare the data and see which is more likely. Let's get this settled.
Which list is easier to believe?
Atheist Miracles:
1. Existence Comes from Non-existence
2. Order Comes from Chaos
3. Life Comes from Non-Life
4. The Personal Comes from the Non-Personal
5. Reason Comes from Non-Reason
6. Morality Comes from Matter
is "cessationism" a correct bible understanding & teaching .
(see 1st corinthians 13:8-12).
the watchtower society believes and teaches "cessationism.
The early church leaders in the first 3 centuries still reported these things happening. It is not like they ceased with the death of the last apostle like many would like to believe But, they do seem to really trail off in time.
